What’s up guys Rogue-9 here. Those of you who took part in simmers survey a few weeks ago will remember that there was a question that I haven’t covered yet The question was which side did you feel you win more on or do better at attacker defender or unsure ? Now if you haven’t thought about this before maybe take a few moments to think about it for yourself Which side do you feel more comfortable on and which one do you think you win more at in the meantime the format for this? Video will be as last time. First I will briefly present the results of the survey and then back with me to discuss the results are Core Ross, Get Flanked, Gregor and Prodigio Pete.
At the time that I evaluated the results of the survey there had been one thousand two hundred and ninety eight respondents and in terms of the attack versus defense question the results were as follows 36% of the respondents felt more comfortable and more successful as attackers 50.6% as defenders and 13.4% were unsure or felt just about equally comfortable Interestingly, these results were pretty much the same across all of the players skill levels. So whether a player was copper or all the way up to diamond, always about half felt they preferred defending and about a third or just over a third preferred attacking. So with that over to you guys What are your personal thoughts on attacking versus defending? And what do you think of these results ? I would have expected most people to feel comfortable defending. Personally I quite like attacking because you’ve got ACOGs and obviously when you get used to, when you have to switch out the ACOG as you know Jaeger and Bandit don’t have ACOG now, and you have to put on say the red dot or the holo You actually get a completely different sensitivity to get used to yeah, so now I actually kind of like attacking more than defending.
There’s different muscle memory Yeah, completely different you have to sort of re-learn it But the one thing I would say is with the with the the research that I did in season three attackers one more, in season two defenders one more So I don’t know if that changes how you how you look at that, or if you were aware of that I attributed it to ACOG removal of Bandit Jaeger and Smoke being buffed, but Yeah, I think I think a lot of people I think that’s different than what I was expecting I didn’t I’d never dreamt in the trap’ meta that Defenders weren’t winning the majority the rounds whether it be in pro league or in ranked I think it’s probably different in ranked but I couldn’t have either. I think defending is, it’s all the pressures on the attackers really and You know if your solo cueing a lot of people there are base plans that most people know So I don’t know let’s go for something really obvious Consular your attack in the garage you want a Thermite you want a Thatcher? So people know that base stuff But if you’re attacking different objectives you might not get the operators you need on attack and that can make a really big difference But on defence, I think it’s less important.
That’s not to say that some operators are really key You know like Smoke or Mira but on attack it can really be make-or-break right from the start mm-hmm How do you guys feel like depending on the game mode because I definitely have different thoughts on it Like depending if I’m on secure area I feel more comfortable on attack because I think security has a lot more frag heavy and You know bomb and hostage are a little bit more strategic for sure I agree with that. I don’t think I’ve played hostage for ages. Actually, I’m one of the weird people who actually quite enjoys hostage, I don’t I don’t know it’s it’s definitely less played mode I don’t think I’ve seen it and you have the the Pro League matches.
They always play bomb that’s the main mode there Yeah, but I think bomb is the most competitive mode personally Yeah, it gives you the most most variation, and how you can go about it. Yeah I look at attack and defense the one thing that I would say to the people who Feel very strongly that they would rather be on defense an attack to me the most overpowered thing in the entire game is the drone and If if you if you were really struggling as an attacker in my opinion That’s a really strong indication that you might not be droning well or enough That’s the first thing that I always give people advice on. Yeah attackers in my opinion have the stronger gadgets They have the more lethal gadgets.
I would say they have the more lethal gadgets and They have the better weapons and the ACOGs So I mean in a lot of ways the game is a game is kind of set up to favor an attacker But you’re right. I mean what what Pete said rings true. No matter. What even if I’ve drone somebody out I still have to do something in order to kill them as an attacker Whereas, you know the defender? You know doesn’t doesn’t have that weight on their shoulders.
The attacker has to has to make the first move. They have to. If two people you know just like sit in a room and wait for somebody else to move and just let the Clock go down, then. That’s just that’s just how it works Do you think these perceptions match actual win/loss ratios sort of on attack and defense side ? Er, I think it’s really close I think I remember seeing a couple of polls or some data collection a couple of seasons ago, that defense was was just like just a tiny bit higher at a really high competitive level play like something like a 51 to 49 percent difference, but to me that’s sort of like chess right where where white has that same sort of like first move advantage That’s that’s very very tiny if you’re taking two people of the same competitive level But I think it’s one of those things where it’s just it’s so close.
You won’t need a perfectly balanced game I think one person is within the margin of error Yeah, yes, yeah there’s only so much you can do. I would pay a lot of money for Ubisoft just to come out and say this is the win percentage at gold silver bronze? Platinum Diamond and Pro League if they opened up the group on me for that I’m the first person to donate because I would love to see it I’ve done some research of my own on Pro League, but that doesn’t translate I mean it doesn’t treat me what the pros are doing doesn’t That’s a completely different level. To be honest I would prefer in this game the defenders won more because I feel like you should always have a slight advantage Being on defense because you’re you are holding down a point rather than attacking it mm-hm So I’ll think the defense should be able to win more often than attack. But wouldn’t that advantage you? Just thinking now. If you got defence first round? It definitely would yeah, yeah. So thats like I think they do actively try to get it as close to 50/50 as possible.
Yeah, I think they did. There are there are a lot of elements and in the game that they do to try to, try to counterbalance that like defenders can pick the site But they can only win on it once and so there’s sort of this interesting I I think it’s I personally think it’s it’s there aren’t any shooters like it that really do the same kind of thing This idea of having like different sites on a map that are you know inherently? Weaker or stronger than others in terms of you know what the defenders would probably prefer And there’s a really interesting kind of meta game that goes back and forth every game up seems like tells a story You know there’s a very clear kind of like early early game and a late game aspect to it And that’s what makes a competitive game a competitive game.
Yeah absolutely. But but nerf Ela, please That’s what that’s what blew my mind with the introduction of Ela and I hate to keep going back to her but I was I’ve always kind of had the impression that it’s easier to win on defense and When they introduced Ella I was like why why why we don’t need this we need something as an attacker, but I think introducing Ela might not have been as big a buff to the defenders as Taking away ACOG from Bandit and Jaeger was a nerf to defenders. Well. You know it’s funny because the general consensus I think it at a higher ranked play is that and and and I think this is really true that if if you’re not getting kills with with Jeager’s ACOG, then you’re not gonna get them with the red dot or the holo and People who are already really good at using the ACOG aren’t going to stop playing Jaeger Just because of that because he’s still three speed and he’s still a very strong character and the weapon itself is still really good But it is that one little thing.
You know very small changes can have a very profound impact on the metagame for for a game like this That’s that’s just how it work. Yeah, if I had control of I would take the ACOG off all the defenders I like the idea from all being more close combat Mmm rather than any can any kind of range combat from a defender I don’t like, like the idea that they’re waiting for the attackers to get in then take them there. And there’s only really like two if you look at the if you look at the data here then If you’re going off of that alone Then there’s only two quote meta operators that really take advantage of the ACOG on defense and that’s Rook and Doc yeah, I think that’s really, I think that limits the competitive capacity of the game a lot You know which is why I was talking about maybe have different weapon classes that can use different attachments I just I think the ACOG is such an advantage over Everything else in the game that I I agree with you pour out at least like to see how it would play out Because in certain situations an ACOG against a reflex is no comparison whatsoever like that a call is gonna have hands down advantage and yeah I don’t know.
I mean I’d love to see at TTS where they took ACOGs away from all defenders That would be really cool to me I think I think that Ubisoft’s maybe underestimating the capacity that they have to make you know kind of perceived big changes to the game just for the sake of Experimentation and kind of like put it in the players hands and see what they think of this What you mentioned there with like taking away ACOGs from defenders. I’m sure there would be a lot of people complaining I’m sure they’d be a lot of Doc and Rook mains just Absolutely livid right well that’s that step that you know kind of leading into my point there Is that with with a game like this it’s already like really difficult to You know make a change like take away ACOG from Jäger But I think there’s a certain point at which Ubi just kind of has to like sit down and go okay, here’s the data, let’s consult it and just and just make this change you know for the sake of the the numbers because at the end of the day, it’s it’s it’s all about the numbers.
And according to your poll there, I mean Rogue. That’s it. I mean you almost have to say good job Ubi What you what they had the way they have it set up right now is as close as you’re gonna get it according to your poll. I mean yeah, you do have a large portion in there That’s unsure But the fact that only what 50 it didn’t even reach 51% say that they prefer defending to me means that it’s pretty well balanced right now. Yeah, I agree Yeah I think that makes sense and I think in terms of the the last point you were making sort of in terms of the making changes we’ve seen it happen with the the recoil something you’d think shouldn’t really be such a huge huge difference I mean at the moment we have random recoil that can go up by a random amount within a certain bracket and left and right within a random amount for each gun and the suggestion just to sort of standardize that and allow players who will dedicate themselves to learning the recoil for certain weapons to allow them to do well with them The amount of backlash, that has created was surprising to me, and you’d think any other drastic change, they’d either have to then.
No they wouldn’t even be able to sneak it in They’ll have to just very gradually stage-by-stage get people used to it because otherwise you’d have a mutiny. The backlash would be too big yeah Well, this is the thing about any kind of like random variables I I never really like saw the recoil like like the randomness of the recoil in the game as a significant problem Because I always kind of treated it like this A pretty good example that I can think off the top of my head was what they did with Halo Reach when I transitioned from Halo 3 to Halo Reach in Halo 3 all of the aiming in that game was a hundred percent skill based and Where you aimed the reticule on your screen that was where the the bullet went and the skill based aspect to a certain degree in Halo 3 was that there was bullet time and weapons weren’t hit scan and you at certain ranges you kind of had to like lead your shots a little bit. When Halo Reach came out they still had that aspect, but the DMR which was supposed to replace the the battle rifle as the quid-pro-quo Skill can into the game like the base gun that you had to like you know you go you play csgo You gotta learn how to use AK and in Halo you have to learn the battle rifle and it reached out to learn the DMR And a lot of people gave the DMR backlash because they implemented reticle bloom And this won’t the reticle bloom was where you had this circle where the bullets would go But as you fired more shots the bloom would get higher and higher and the aiming would get less precise The problem that that occurred there when it came to getting headshots with a DMR there was a certain range at about like medium based range where if you just spam fired the trigger instead of controlling your shots you were actually at a statistical advantage to win that particular gunfight if you just Spam find the trigger because there might be a bullet that would go to the head down the winning lottery ticket Exactly and in Siege that that problem.
I don’t think is as Pronounced just because of the of the one headshot mechanic a one-shot headshot mechanic that already exists in the game to begin with and and certain guns certainly have different kinds of like Recoil patterns that they will generally kind of fire anyway, but in a game in a game of poker That’s a game of chance right? There’s gonna be that occasional game that just won’t really work out for somebody they can do everything right and they’ll just get unlucky The point is that they’re able to play consistently over the course of a long period of time and do better than others That’s just kind of having numbers line up.
In Siege I think that there is still a very clear disparity between people who can control their shots and sometimes you have to get a little unlucky with the recoil Sometimes I get a little bit lucky, but the recoil, but it’s never really been like that big of an issue to me personally from like a competitive standpoint I I think there I think there needs to be recoil in a game like Siege because you know you’re dealing with a tactical shooter and you’re dealing with guns and and guns are loud and They’re you know this it’s really hard to control some are harder to control than others. You need to have a certain aspect of difference between different gun classes, I think and it needs to be some kind of caveat to engaging people at range I don’t think that an Ela main should be able to let go out at medium range and be able to duke it out With people with assault rifles just because the person went into a training room And you know practiced a recoil pattern like a kajillion times To the point where they can just get every single shot on on track I disagree completely right there like the whole recoil uproar is honestly like I love the rainbow 60s community I’m so happy That’s the most disappointed I’ve ever been in this community because why why not make the game as skill-based as possible right now the recoil is random Which means that you’re going to have random gunfights, which means that this time your aim might be great And you might do exactly what you need to get the kill But the next time that might not happen so if the time that it works for you is in the first round But the time that it doesn’t work for you is in a 4v4 overtime match Those are two different situations, and I want to take that out, and I cannot believe that In my opinion if you go into a custom game And you practice the recoil to learn it and learn how to manage it and you get to the point where you spend hours doing It and get to the point where you can be a laser with it good for you well done, and you deserve it Right I mean so right now right now the alternative is that? Maybe one time my recoils gonna kick up and give me a head shot, and the next time it’s gonna kick to the left I’m when I miss completely.
That’s I would I would I would take nine times out of ten I’m gonna take the situation where I can go and learn the recoil over the randomness I don’t think the problem is that pronounce.d I think that the round based system the game already has is is enough to to counterbalance that that’s sort of Variability, but I don’t I don’t necessarily disagree with the logic I’m kind of in favor of predictable recoil so I guess we flanked here I’d like to think the reason the community weren’t mad keen on it is because when you hop on that tedious I don’t know if you guys recall but some of the recoil was Kind of silly you know and I’d like to think that people just looked at that and said that is ridiculous I’m having these sort of four styles repeated across every weapon whereas I think when we heard That this predictable recoil was coming into the game a lot of us felt because weapons at the moment They’re not truly random.
I mean if you go and fire. Yeah, that was my point Yeah, Bucks CA against the wall ten times It’s not gonna look similar to Ash’s R4C like there is a general pattern to how Bucks assault rifle fires And I think what people thought it would be Like an average of every time Buck fires his weapon and that would just now be the constant every time he fires It instead you got this weird S shape and I think people just want nah thats kind of silly So I am in favor of the predictable recoil But I just want it implemented in a way where the weapons feel similar to how they feel at the moment Apart from those ones that need tweaking like I think Bucks probably does and maybe Capita’s Para308, I think it is. They need tweaking or whatever, but I think to just completely change it. I think that is probably what upset a lot of people, Well, I I think that again I think that ARs for the attackers should have an inherent advantage at at range Because that just makes sense and submachine guns should require I think defenders to get a little bit closer in order to get the most out of them I think that if you did do a predictable recoil system.
You could you could implement a predictable? I mean well like a counter-strike is a good example of that right I think that there is is enough in in that game to warrant the usage of assault rifles over submachine guns It’s a bit of an awkward comparison because the the metaphor counter-strike is Considerably different than how Siege is set up at the same time so it’s a very difficult problem to tackle But I have what I would do is give the the ARs a little bit less Spacing in terms of the patterns that they used and give the SMGs is a tiny bit more Just so that if there is someone who is able to you know go into that training lobby With the submachine gun and be able to compete at long range with it good for you.
You’ve done something That’s more difficult than somebody else with their assault rifle at that range, but that’s just mine That’s what’s my stance on it. I think there needs to be very clear Advantages and disadvantages to you know different operators and different weapon types,personally. I just want whenever I get into a gunfight And I lose I want to be because 100 percent because that dude did a better job than me I don’t want it to be because my gun kicked right this time and the last time it kicked left Or you know you know what I mean like I will yeah Don’t get me wrong like there have been plenty of instances where I’ll be Like someone will try to do like a run out on me From the outside like they’ll just do something like run out on the balcony at this predetermined moment and I get like a couple of shots into them But because of the way that they were fired And they’ll just spray they’ll just spray wildly but because the gun happened to like kick in a certain way They get a head shot off of me, and then I die.
That’s annoying From there a lot you know I hold my hands up when I’ve shot sort of near someone’s head I’ve even had it where I’ve reviewed it, and my reticle wasn’t on the guy’s head I’ll still have the head shot so yeah Yeah, it goes both ways, and I think that visual thing is part of the the problem It was a member of the community that identified that there’s this visual recoil yeah Yeah, I yeah honestly if they’re if they’re gonna do one thing where the where the reticule is being pointed at which point the the bullet is is coming out of the gun? That’s that’s just where it should go.
Yeah. I think that’s one thing. They really need to fix cuz that’s jarring You know cuz that just does it to me like someone who’s you know like a really like logic based? Person that just doesn’t make sense you know, but it is a video game at the same time. I probably will when they actually implement it but yeah, I’m expecting zigzags and s-shapes. Yeah but whatever happens to the game ,I’ll be fine with it. You know because I just I liked the game too much I just hope that Ubi you know makes the best decision based off of the numbers that they have.
They have said that its gonna be on the TTS, and it should. Different you know in different guys is that they’re not gonna push it out and or trust them to put these different versions on the teeth yes And for us to give them the feedback that they need but then it’s on us as a community to make sure that this feedback that we’ve given them isn’t just you know reactionary and Yeah, yeah, I know a lot of people sometimes um people will come into my comments And they’ll talk about how I give I’ll give Ubisoft too much crap. What really is disproportionate there is that I only make videos really and complain about stuff when bad things happen to a game I guess and I don’t necessarily talk as much whenever good stuff happens because it’s not as entertaining to to go, “wow good job!” You know people like people to get mad but I really do think that Ubisoft is is doing a good job with the game especially when you consider that they’ve Mainly been a a single player company for a very very long time I always kind of joke about how Siege sort of became Accidentally popular for a company that mainly does single-player kinds of games and now they’re just sort of like oh crap yeah Yeah like what do we do but game balance especially at a competitive level for a competitive FPS is really really difficult especially Considering that and I’m not trying to sound elitist You know people have opinions about a lot of things on the internet, and they’re not all necessarily Based off of off of facts sometimes people just get mad about stuff And it’s not necessarily based in a fair Argumentative stance but as long as they do enough internal testing then I’m not necessarily gonna complain unless I see something That’s that I think is just really ridiculous Yeah, I think a great example was when Jackals ability came out and everyone was just like always gonna be overpowered.
Just wait to listen the game, and then see what it’s like I kind of thought the same thing about Dokabie’s camera hacking thing because I saw that and she even kills Valkyrie and the in the debut video that they did for her and I was just like oh my goodness all the Valkyrie mains are just just done and In a sense once someone dies and once Dokabie gets into the cameras Yeah, if Valkyrie places her cameras incorrectly then it becomes a liability to the team to a certain extent But it’s still counterable. There’s still things that the player can do to mitigate the negative effects of that Yeah, I think it’s good every opere have some sort of camera mmm-hmm Yeah, but like you said if you’re conscious of that fact that the camera can be hacked you need to then just as Valkyrie place the cameras where they’re useful to the team But where you’re not giving away team members that you know will be operating in certain areas And I think something else that is probably beneficial to that ability is it also Means that you need to be more careful as a roamer because now it’s not just Your own life at stake your own ability to contribute to the game But if you get isolated and caught out if you’re playing too risky You’re the one who’s going to end up harming the team mm-hmm.
I quite like that aspect yeah, Valkyrie didn’t have a counter before I mean you can say that IQ is a counter kind of I mean she could locate the Cameras if she wasn’t in the same room. She couldn’t do anything about them Twitch if she saw him she can destroy him but in my opinion Valkyrie needed a hard counter And I’m really glad that Dokabie kind of fills that role. I like that aspect of it. Yeah, I’ve had a game today when I was inside the building and I kept getting spotted and I was like you and I could Not for the life of me find about Cameron yeah I’m just I’m just glad that Dokabie isn’t another 3-speed with a fast and firing rate AR and I think that was a really deliberate decision that they made with her gun choices especially to kind of counterbalance that Yeah, initially.
I was very sad to see no assault rifle, but like I love playing her. She’s a lot of fun to play yeah. She’s really fun. I’m a very support base kind of kind of player and she fits in that role really well Excellent good. I think we’ve sort of drifted off topic a little bit If there’s anything else related to either sort of the rankings or the player choice in terms of defending or attacking otherwise I’d say That was I was a lot of a lot of useful stuff, and thanks a lot for joining in. Yeah, glad we could. Glad I could be here Yeah, thanks a lot Rogue, thanks for having this really interesting conversation great too great to hear the perspectives of all you guys I really appreciate it and enjoy all your guys’s perspectives.
And there you have it attack versus defense discussed What are your thoughts on playing on either of the teams leave your comments in the comments section below? and if you enjoyed this podcast style Roundtable discussion we’re actually making it into a bit of a series, and there are several previous episodes You’ll be able to watch already. The link in the top left hand corner now will take you to a playlist where you can catch up. Links to all of the other guys channels in the description and with that guys as always I hope you enjoyed the video, and I will see you in the next episode.
As found on Youtube